Assalamu alaikum, I
hope all is well.
Walikum Assalam, how are you Mohsin?
Alhamdulillah, everything is fine.
How is your progress in the tech world?
Alhamdulillah, everything is fine.
Great.
Umar, as I briefed you before the session,
the purpose of this session is to guide
the youth through the platform of Mohsin My
Mentor.
Through this platform, we can guide the youth
through our experience and exposure.
We can tell them about the journey that
we have travelled through.
Maybe we can be helpful for them.
We can bring people from different professions here
and try to cater for them.
Thanks to you for taking out time.
You have been with me since my school
days and you have been with me in
college as well.
I know you very well.
Thanks a lot for your time.
Anytime.
Thank you.
Let's start.
I will ask you some questions.
I am expecting that you will talk in
detail.
I will initiate the questions.
For the listeners, please share your academic and
professional background.
Let's start with the academic background.
I started my education from Habib Abdullah School.
I have studied up to Matric.
After Matric, I went to Agha Khan Higher
Secondary School.
My initial academic education was in Computer Science.
I did my Matric in Computer Science.
After that, I went to Agha Khan Higher
Secondary School for Commerce.
I did my Intermediate in Commerce.
During my Intermediate, I realized that I was
interested in Software Development.
So, I switched back to Software Engineering.
After that, I went to Zabis.
I did my B.Sc. from Zabis.
It was called B.C.S. Bachelors of
Computer Science.
It was a three-year program.
So, I did my B.C.S. from
Zabis.
After that, I shifted back to my business
side.
After that, I took admission in CBM.
After that, I did my Masters in Brand
Management from CBM.
I did my Matric in 1999.
I did my Intermediate in 2001.
I completed my Bachelors in 2004.
In 2007, I completed my Masters.
I was a regular student till my Bachelors.
I did my Masters as an Executive on
weekends.
I had started my own business.
I had set up my own company.
This is my educational background.
I started my professional life in 2004.
I started my Software Development in freelancing.
I worked for 4-6 months.
After that, I had an opportunity to set
up my own business.
After that, I set up my own software
house.
The name of the business is IntelliGenes.
Since 2005, it has been around 20 years.
I started working with a partner.
We are still together.
I have been managing IntelliGenes for 20 years
as a CTO.
My partner is a CEO.
He looks after the business side.
I look after the technical side.
There are some other ventures as well.
These are the ventures that I started from
time to time.
They were not very successful.
But they provided a lot of learnings.
There was a venture in which I set
up an online store.
I have a family business of perfumes.
I set up an online store for my
family.
I ran it for a while.
Then I handed it over to my brothers.
All this was happening in parallel.
Along with IntelliGenes, I also set up a
freelancing platform.
The name of the platform is Synergy.
I had planned to raise funding for it
2 years ago.
But after that, there was a downturn in
the startup field.
We have paused the application.
Its MVP is now live.
Its entity is also registered in Canada.
I have a plan to take it forward.
But it is in a stale mode.
I also set up an advertising agency 1
year ago.
It provides services for Google Ads.
I have always been interested in business, computers,
advertising, and branding.
I took this initiative by combining both.
It started last year in the name of
AdLabs.
We provide Google Ads services to clients.
Alhamdulillah, that is going well.
This is a summary of my professional career.
Great exposure.
It is amazing that you took the exposure
by switching to a different platform.
What made you realize that the software field...
A youngster came to us and asked a
question.
He said that he has never worked in
a computer other than Microsoft applications.
How would I know what coding, programming, and
software is?
How would I know what my interest is?
To find out your interest, you have to
try different things.
I am giving my opinion.
To find out your interest, you have to
try different things.
How did I find out my interest?
I have been interested in video games since
childhood.
You can't call computers an extension.
Because they belong to the same environment.
I found my interest there.
As I started interacting with computers, I got
interested in exploring new things.
For example, how is software formatted?
How does Windows install?
How is it done if we have to
assemble computers from scratch?
I started learning all these things.
I started to learn it from myself.
Then internet came.
Then I started to debug websites by myself.
I started to see their source code.
What is this html?
What if I copy paste this html and
do this and that?
So In my opinion, if you want to
know what you are interested in, then you
need to experience it.
If I sit at home and only listen
to people, actually this problem happens with everyone,
even with me.
The person you talk to will give you
advice according to his experience.
So the problem is that the circumstances of
others are not yours.
My circumstances are different, Mohsin's are different, Zeeshan's
are different, background is different, family exposure is
different.
So until you experience it yourself and listen
to others, you can't make the right decision.
One very fortunate thing that I consider myself
lucky is that my parents didn't put any
pressure on me.
My father gave me full support.
He just told me whatever you do, do
it well.
Whether you go to the business side, technology
side, do business, do a job, but do
it well.
Whatever field you are studying, but study well.
Don't just show interest and then go here
and there.
I had a lot of leverage available.
If you look at my educational career, I
have made a lot of jumps.
I did matriculation in computer science, I thought
I should do commerce so I came to
commerce.
I realized that my interest is in computer
science.
So I came back to bachelors.
I faced a lot of difficulties.
Because in Pakistan, once you take commerce, coming
back to science is impossible for you.
You don't have the knowledge, understanding of maths.
So I had to struggle a lot.
No university was ready to accept me.
Fast was saying that we don't take commerce
people.
Zabbis used to allow, so I had to
struggle a lot for his interest test.
In the early semesters, he taught physics, maths,
all these things extensively.
I didn't know all those things at all.
I had to learn again.
But there was interest, so I had a
lot of problems.
But it didn't happen that I lost hope
and I could do it.
So my advice to new people is that
don't look at the world for your interest.
Actually, the problem is that if we start
looking at people around us, then everyone starts
pushing us on whatever latest trend is going
on.
Just do this, it has a lot of
scope.
Yes.
Whatever advice I take from people, I tell
them that there is scope in everything.
It is not that there is scope in
any field and there is no scope in
any field.
If there is any field that exists today
and you think that it will exist it
is not that it is going to be
destroyed or it is going to end.
So there is scope in it.
If you take any field in the world,
for example, if I take the medical field,
then you will find doctors who take 100
rupees for a visit and doctors who take
4000 rupees for a visit.
They are in the same field.
Even in some cases, their specialization is the
same.
They are both general physicians.
One general physician is taking 100 rupees from
you and one general physician is taking 5000
rupees or 4000 rupees from you.
So it all depends on you how you
polish yourself and how much you struggle.
The field matters, but it does not matter
so much.
In every field, you will find successful people
and you will also find unsuccessful people.
You will find people who earn crores of
rupees and you will also find such people
who are hand to mouth.
So if you want to explore yourself and
what you are interested in, then you will
have to experience different things.
And you will automatically find out that whatever
you are not interested in, that is your
interest.
Even if your hours pass, you will feel
that even if I am not getting money,
I have no problem because I am enjoying
doing this work.
So that means that you are interested in
this thing.
Just like you don't realize how much time
has passed the day you get a job
of your choice or you get a job
of interest, you will feel that you are
watching a movie and you will enjoy it
as much as you are watching a movie.
Maybe you will enjoy it more than that.
Even if I enjoy the work I do,
I prefer to do it more than watching
a movie.
I don't want to watch a movie.
Yes.
It's a true fact.
You are absolutely right.
Umar, let's talk about software.
For example, my background is in business.
I am talking about a user end.
So I feel that if someone makes a
coding software for my office work, then that
is a software.
But when we sit with professionals like you
and talk about children, youth, career, people like
you give advice that this software is not
just coding or making a website.
It has a lot of different areas.
So let's shed some light on that.
A software is used as a broader term.
In that, how would you like to define
different fields in layman's terms?
Let me explain.
The best analogy that I discuss with other
people is the construction industry.
So when you go to do construction, I
go to build a building.
To build a building, I don't just need
a worker.
A worker is a small part of it.
I need an architect, I need an electrical
engineer, I need a civil engineer, I need
contractors, I need machinery, and I need workers.
So in layman's terms, people who perceive software
as a software developer, they think that it
can be done by one person.
I have talked to a lot of people
and seen a lot of business minded people.
They have a misconception that you just need
to hire two kids to make an app.
An app is not made like that.
If I tell you to build a building
and I hire 20 workers, and I get
them to build a 20 story building, it
won't stand for the rest of its life.
And even if it does, it will fall
down the next day.
So the way you need multiple roles to
do a construction project, the same way you
need multiple roles Every role has a different
field.
For example, project management has a field, business
analysis has a field, UI UX design, user
experience design has a field where all the
designers come in.
DevOps has a new field which includes developer
operations and is a concept of DevOps.
That is a whole field.
It basically ensures that the environments in which
the software has to run, how they are
deployed.
Then there is a big part of AI
which has recently developed due to OpenAI.
So AI engineers have come in and the
data engineers tell them how to better utilize
the data, how to get patterns out of
it.
Then comes the whole part of AI that
how to utilize AI in different applications.
Process automation has come.
Apart from this, if I talk about software
development, the field of software development has been
subdivided into three more fields.
Okay.
Interesting.
One is your traditional software development which I
call High Code.
It is called High Code or you call
it traditional software development.
In which a person sits and chooses a
language and writes code in it.
So Java, .NET, React, Perl, Ruby on Rails,
there are many languages.
There is Python.
These are all High Code languages which we
call High Code.
Apart from this, there is something called Low
Code.
Low Code technologies have come.
Low Code technologies are a combination of High
Code and user-intuitive design.
In that, you don't have to do much
coding.
Most of the work is done by drag
-and-drop.
There is a product of Microsoft which you
call Power Apps.
That is a Low Code solution.
If you understand that Low Code solution, if
you combine Excel and PowerPoint, then that is
the experience of Power Apps.
In that, just like you drag-and-drop
your presentation in PowerPoint, you can drag-and
-drop and make an app in Power Apps.
If you want a button on the screen,
you drag-and-drop and get a button.
If you want a text box, you get
a text box.
If you want a text, you get a
text.
You don't have to do traditional programming behind
that.
You have to write functions like Excel.
With that, the functionality of the app develops.
This is an area which is developing.
In fact, it has developed a lot.
Many companies, big giants have come in it.
Microsoft has come in it.
Salesforce has come in it.
Bubble is another platform.
That is Low Code.
Many low-code platforms have come in it.
Apart from this, another technology has been enhanced
which is called No Code.
There is no coding in it.
It means that coding is there but you
don't have to do it.
Basically, you are doing everything through drag-and
-drop.
You have to do anything.
You have to make a workflow.
You have to make a UI.
Everything is done by drag-and-drop interfaces.
The world is moving in this direction.
Going forward, in the next 2-3 years,
4-5 years, the traditional coding of High
Code will be done by AI.
Common people don't have to do it.
Even today, those technologies are available.
Just like I give instructions to ChatGPT, in
the same way, there is a tool of
GitHub, which is called Copilot.
When I give instructions to it, it generates
the source code for me.
It can read my source code and tell
me what is the problem in my source
code.
The world is moving in this direction that
going forward, High Code or traditional software development
will be very limited because most of the
work will be done by AI.
You will just tell AI and it will
make your app, design, images.
It will do all the work.
Going forward, software development will change a lot.
In the end, there will be only analysts
and consultants who know how to use AI
to develop software.
This is where I think software development is
headed.
Can we understand that skill set will matter
more rather than pursuing a bachelor's degree and
specializing in a language like SQL or Javascript?
Do you think this will happen?
Yes, it will happen.
I don't know much about international universities, but
I know a little about Pakistani universities.
What is being taught in universities will not
be needed after two years because AI will
write it for you.
As an employer, after two years, if I
have two options to hire a person who
can write 10,000 lines of code in
a month and I have a second option
to hire an AI who can do this
in two days.
What do you think I would prefer?
Definitely, people will go to AI.
There will be job losses.
There will be a lot of losses because
the role will change.
If I am running a software development company
and I have to hire 10 people, when
AI comes, I haven't adopted it yet, but
when I adopt it, I will have to
hire 2 people to control AI.
We will just input and it will generate
code.
If I want to design Motion My Mentor
app, I will retrieve a lot of things
and come to a software company like Umer
and say that I have read this.
I have a lot of AI tools GitHub
and ChatGPT.
I have heard that the paid version of
ChatGPT is not open source.
It can design the entire app.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Microsoft has added an AI tool called Copilot
Like I was talking about PowerApps, there are
apps in it.
They say that they get a text box
like ChatGPT.
You just input your instructions and it generates
the entire app.
This is still happening.
Then you can fine tune it according to
your knowledge and skills.
So for people who want to come in
this industry, it is important to look at
the future.
If you and I were talking a year
ago, we would not be talking about this.
I would be talking about traditional things.
Because ChatGPT was not available then.
I cannot predict how many changes will come
in the next 6 months.
They are changing so fast.
My advice is that it is important to
know as much as they can in the
future.
And they should not look at the future
in Pakistan.
Because unfortunately, Pakistan is a second-hand market
for technology.
When technology becomes mainstream in the world, then
that information reaches us and it becomes mainstream.
Take the example of mobile apps.
Till date, our local banks are happy that
we have invented a bank app.
The world has been using mobile apps for
25 years.
So my advice is that people who want
to come in this industry, they should look
at the future.
Futurists, who are thought leaders in technology, AI,
etc.
Follow them and try to understand that in
the next 2-4 years, when they are
ready to enter the market.
It will take them 2-3 years to
get an education and skills.
Even if they want to pursue a degree.
What will happen in the world after 5
years?
It is not like they spend their money
and spend lakhs of rupees to get an
education.
When they come out, they realize that the
job they prepared for is not available.
No one wants that job.
No one wants that role.
Great.
Umar, I am using some key pointers from
what you said.
It is very important to understand the youth.
They should have eagerness.
They should have curiosity.
They should know what is new.
They should work enthusiastically.
As you said, I am not discouraging you
to study.
But along with studying, tactical exposure is very
important.
They should keep their curiosity level high.
They should see different things.
Only then they will be able to keep
themselves to a certain level.
Exactly.
You talked about job losses.
You are an entrepreneur.
You started your entrepreneurship journey after freelancing.
How much will you encourage the youth?
Our youth is massive.
I am not just talking about Pakistan.
Many listeners, at least, it is very clear
that the language we speak, be it Urdu
or Hindi, in our Asian culture and outside
the country, many people speak and listen to
it.
They can benefit from it.
When we talk about youth, when the youth
faces the environment of uncertainty, entrepreneurship is much
better than that.
Exactly.
How much will you motivate and what do
you think should be inculcated in our youth?
I am against the focus on entrepreneurship.
We should focus on entrepreneurship.
The first choice of a person should be
to create his own setup because it is
the most secure.
No one can fire you from your own
job or business.
Entrepreneurship makes you risk-averse and teaches you
risk-taking.
In a job, you go from paycheck to
paycheck day to day.
You develop a mindset that you will get
paid on 5th.
I will spend on this and that.
Entrepreneurship is a rollercoaster ride.
You may not get anything in the first
1-2 years but God will bless you
with a place to keep your money.
Entrepreneurship gives you a benefit and gives you
an opportunity to take different risks.
It gives you strength.
I have seen many people who want to
start a business but their minds are so
restricted while doing a job that they cannot
switch.
It is a psychological jump.
If I hire someone and tell him that
he will get unguaranteed pay for 2 months
like 10 days, 5 days, he will get
scared and say, I cannot live like this.
I will face a lot of problems.
If I tell this to an entrepreneur, he
will say, I am used to it.
I am used to it.
Sometimes it is more, sometimes it is less.
Sometimes it is a profit and sometimes it
is a loss.
The biggest role in this is that the
family has to think about it.
Especially the parents.
If you look at the environment at home,
entrepreneurs are coming from the families where entrepreneurship
is happening.
Entrepreneurs come from jobless families.
They are like rebels who say, I don't
want to do it.
But if you look at the pattern, you
are from the same family, I am from
the same family.
In our families, entrepreneurship is happening and the
same family is being followed.
It is the responsibility of the parents to
teach their children entrepreneurship from an early stage.
By early stage, I mean as soon as
they get in their senses, they should encourage
them to utilize their money and earn something.
There are so many opportunities You can make
online shops at home.
You can make pages on Instagram and sell
things.
It is very easy to do e-commerce.
When you and I were there, e-commerce
was not a concept.
It was not easy for us to set
up something and sell it.
Today's children have no problem.
But unfortunately, some are busy in Snapchat, some
are busy in Twitter, some are behind Instagram,
but they are not utilizing it.
So parents should encourage their children from day
1 to earn a side hustle.
Even if you get less or more money,
gain experience and do something.
After that, it is the responsibility of colleges
and schools to encourage them.
Unfortunately, our schools and universities I am talking
about Pakistan.
I have no idea about other countries.
We are preparing people for jobs.
Yes Our universities give us an environment to
get a good job.
Unfortunately, in today's technology, when a child comes
out, he does not know anything.
When I came out of Zabbis as a
bachelor, I realized that I know theory but
practically I do not know anything.
I had to learn the right software development
which is required in a practical project.
I had to learn it again.
You are right.
Usually, when I conclude, I ask that is
there a lot of weight on the skill
set?
We are going back to basics.
When we used to see our parents or
grandparents, there were no degrees.
We had a skill set.
We were careful.
We valued time, punctuality, character.
We used to work on our tongue.
All these things were a part of business,
entrepreneur or even job.
Along with that, the skill set was very
good.
He could sit and become a good columnist.
We can see it in communication.
The skill set matters a lot.
Now, if I am not wrong, you and
I are from the background where our family
used to tell us that I don't think
we have ever talked about job.
We used to say that it is our
job.
Take some money and sell something.
Even if it is a cricket bat, if
you play or something like that, it gives
you a lot of motivation.
We have seen that you started freelancing.
We see that the youth in Pakistan or
internationally are working.
The easiest platform for them is to teach
to foreigners.
If you are in IT, you can outsource
freelancing services.
If you are in accounting, you can do
it.
If you are in legal sources, it is
not developed in Pakistan.